24 March, I have changed the working title of this project from Escaping Well to Breaking Free.
I use ChatGPT to bounce ideas off, and I’m working on the overall structure of Breaking Free a sequel to Holding On. Here is a record of the conversation. I think you can see that ChatGPT isn’t really generating any new ideas, but is giving me postive feedback on the three main relationships in the book: Em and her mum, Em and Joel, Em and George. I appreciate that ChatGPT can identify the themes that are lurking below the surface.
To jump through, I’ve got subheadings for each part of the conversation
Em and Mum
You said:
I am writing a novel and I want to ask you some questions; you are to behave kind of like a psychologist or counsellor, to help me fill out some details about characters
ChatGPT said:
That sounds great! I’ll approach it like a character psychology deep dive—helping you explore motivations, contradictions, trauma, growth, and whatever else you need. What characters or situations are you working on?
You said:
Em, 18 year old redhaired girl, has worked in her parents corner store ever since she was about 11. She is familiar with dealing with the public, and is in a conflictual relationship with her mum, who constantly scolds and shames her… for example, has her living in fear of getting the change wrong, and in not balancing the till. Her birth name is “Manessa,” which is what her mum calls her, but she a prefers “Em.” She is a little larger than normal, and through school was very uncomfortable in her skin. The school uniform looked bad on her. She was the type of girl who wanted to wear lace up high boots and black. When she finished school, she got the hell out of home as quickly as she could and moved to university, but she finds that the patterns of her family are not easy to escape. She can’t get government funding for uni because her parents diddled the books and didn’t pay her as a proper employee, for example. (I may need help with the way that her attachment styles etc impact her friendships at uni, say with her housemates.) A few months after leaving home, there’s a knock on her door, and it’s her mother who has split up from her father, and says she has nowhere to stay. Can she stay with Em? Em lets her stay, grudgingly, but punishes her, in small ways, now that she has the advantage. What type of things might Em say and do to punish her mother? In the end, when it is resolved, how would that look?
ChatGPT said:
This is a fascinating dynamic—Em is carrying years of shame, control, and emotional manipulation from her mother, and now she finally has power. But power gained in reaction to past harm can be complicated and self-destructive. Let’s break this down into different aspects of her psychology and behavior:
How Em Might Punish Her Mother
Em’s actions will likely be passive-aggressive, calculated to make her mother feel small in the same ways she did. However, she may not even recognize she’s doing it at first. Some possibilities:
- Weaponizing Her Name –
- Insisting her mother call her “Em” and pointedly ignoring her when she says “Manessa.”
- If her mother protests, Em might coolly say something like, “I get to decide what people call me in my own home.”
- Financial Pettiness –
- Charging her mother for rent, utilities, and food, even though she knows her mother is struggling.
- Making passive-aggressive comments about “needing to keep the books balanced properly—wouldn’t want to get the numbers wrong.”
- Making Her Feel Unwanted –
- Leaving mess in shared spaces and then blaming her mother for being uncomfortable.
- Casually inviting friends over to the house and acting as if her mother is invisible.
- Controlling the Kitchen –
- Only buying food she likes and refusing to consider what her mother would eat.
- Telling her, “You can eat whatever’s in the fridge. If it’s not to your taste, that’s not my problem.”
- Forcing Gratitude & Submission –
- If her mother complains about anything, Em might say, “Well, you can always go somewhere else, if you have somewhere else to go.”
- Making her mother ask for permission to use things, subtly flipping the parent-child dynamic.
- Public Shaming –
- Bringing up stories of her childhood in front of friends or housemates.
- Saying things like, “Funny how the tables turn, huh? You always said I wouldn’t make it without you.”
How This Impacts Em
Even though she thinks she’s getting payback, Em may feel:
- Empty – The revenge doesn’t satisfy her as much as she thought.
- Guilt & Self-Doubt – She hates her mother, but doesn’t actually want to become her.
- Escalating Resentment – No matter how much she punishes her, the past isn’t erased.
- Struggles with Relationships –
- She may push her housemates away, viewing them through the lens of her mother’s criticism.
- She may struggle with attachment: either overly accommodating or quick to cut people off.
How This Resolves
The resolution can’t be easy—Em has too much hurt, and her mother likely isn’t naturally apologetic. Some possible ways the situation unfolds:
- An Unexpected Moment of Vulnerability –
- Her mother, who has always been cold, suddenly breaks down. Maybe Em sees her mother as a person for the first time.
- Perhaps her mother admits something shocking: “I did to you what my mother did to me.”
- It doesn’t erase the past, but it shakes Em enough to reconsider her approach.
- A Housemate Calls Em Out –
- Maybe a friend notices how cruel Em is being and says something like, “You’re treating her like she treated you. Is that who you want to be?”
- This forces Em to reflect on whether revenge is helping her heal.
- Em Decides to Move Forward for Herself –
- The real resolution might not be a big emotional reconciliation but a quiet decision by Em to stop feeding the cycle.
- Maybe she sits her mother down and says: “You need to leave. I don’t owe you this. I need to move on.”
- A Small Act of Kindness –
- At the last moment, when her mother is leaving, maybe Em does something tiny but significant—giving her food for the road, calling a cab instead of making her walk.
- Something that shows she’s not doing this for her mother, but for herself, to prove she’s different.
Final Thought
Em’s arc is about stepping out of the shadow of the past. The key isn’t just punishing her mother—it’s realizing that punishing her doesn’t erase the damage. True power is choosing to be better.
Does this align with the tone you’re aiming for?
You said:
Em and Josh
Yes it does… but now I want to add another thread to the story. Josh is a 30 something musician who has a weekly gig at the bar that Em works at. The bar has few patrons, so Josh and Em strike up a friendship. Josh has a young family and wife at home, but he is having a second go at reigniting a music career. He says to Em that he self-destructed it last time, and he tells her that he would like her to hold him accountable for not self-destructing it again. (As you can tell, he is a quite intense, intoxicating, and Em can’t help but find him attractive.) Em ends up in a complicated sexual relationship with him (Although this is a teen book, so I have to keep it fairly tame). She realizes that he has essentially self-destructed his music career yet again, and that this is his pattern; he can’t ever let himself get off the starting blocks. Is she doing the same thing with her life?
ChatGPT said:
That’s a fantastic parallel—Josh becomes both a mirror and a warning for Em. Their dynamic is charged with power imbalance, self-sabotage, and the allure of chaos, making it both intoxicating and destructive. Let’s explore what this means for Em’s arc and how their relationship intertwines with her own struggle.
Why Is Em Drawn to Josh?
- He’s an Escape –
- Em is trapped in patterns from her past, but Josh offers a world of passion, art, and rebellion—things she’s longed for but never let herself fully embrace.
- He’s everything she wanted to be in high school: someone who wears black and doesn’t care what people think.
- He Sees Her –
- Unlike her mother, who only saw her as a burden, Josh treats her like someone interesting, mature, and important.
- He’s the first person to ask her to hold him accountable. That makes her feel powerful.
- It’s a Controlled Self-Destruction –
- She punishes her mother in small, subtle ways, but this relationship is a way of punishing herself.
- She knows, deep down, that nothing good will come of it, but she keeps going anyway.
Josh’s Role in Em’s Story
Josh isn’t just a love interest—he’s a living metaphor for her own self-sabotage. He says he wants to break his destructive patterns, but he keeps repeating them.
- What She Sees in Him, She Sees in Herself –
- Josh is stuck in a cycle: every time success is within reach, he ruins it.
- Em starts to wonder—is she doing the same thing? Her mother is gone, but she’s still keeping herself small, still repeating old patterns.
- The Moment She Realizes the Truth –
- Maybe she catches him in a lie—saying he’s “working on new songs,” but actually just drinking and talking about music instead of making it.
- Or she sees how he’s letting down his wife and kids and realizes: he’s not tragic, he’s just stuck. And if she’s not careful, she will be too.
- The Parallel Between Josh & Her Mother –
- Both of them manipulate her, in different ways. Her mother controlled her through shame and fear.
- Josh does it through charm, vulnerability, and an intoxicating sense of importance.
- She realizes that both relationships have made her feel small.
The Big Question: Is Em Doing the Same Thing?
Yes. But she doesn’t see it at first.
- She tells herself she’s moving forward—new city, new job, new people. But in reality, she’s still controlled by her past.
- She’s still acting from a place of proving herself, not choosing for herself.
- She sabotages good things because deep down, she doesn’t believe she deserves better.
Josh is her wake-up call.
How This Resolves
- Em Walks Away From Josh Before He Can Destroy Her Too –
- Maybe she calls him out and he laughs it off, proving he never really wanted accountability.
- Or maybe he crashes hard, and she realizes she doesn’t have to go down with him.
- She Breaks Her Own Pattern –
- Instead of punishing herself, she starts choosing herself.
- Maybe she quits the bar and applies for a scholarship.
- Maybe she moves out of the house where her mother was staying.
- Maybe she lets herself dream of something bigger.
- A Final Scene With Josh –
- He shows up at the bar again, a little worse for wear.
- He gives her “one last chance” to slip back into their old pattern.
- She looks at him and chooses to leave.
What This Means for the Story’s Theme
Josh isn’t just a toxic love interest—he’s the mirror Em needs to break free. He’s proof that self-destruction is a choice, and for the first time, she realizes: she doesn’t have to choose it.
How does this feel for the direction of the story? Would you like to dig into any of these moments deeper?
Em and George
You said:
Okay… One last thread to mix in. George Kilic is a friend of Em’s from childhood. She had a massive crush on him back in Grade Six, but hasn’t really seen him since. He is Turkish, from a close-knit family, and was a real ladies-man when he was a kid. He’s still a ladies-man, in first year uni, and when Em sees him, she feels the heart-flutters that she felt when she was twelve. But then she realizes that he is just a kid, really. He’s not a man, like Josh. He’s still a boy, playing boy games. Consequently, the crush is extinguished, and she’s a bit put off. As the months unfold, however, she sees George now and then. He is having tragic breakups with shallow uni girlfriends, and is bemoaning the shallowness of those relationships. He is also *really* struggling with homesickness, missing his mum’s homecooked Turkish food, and he’s struggling with the self-disclipine required for his engineering degree. He’s failing his courses, being a bit of a party-loner, and he feels like he is letting his family down, even though they are a thousand miles away. Em’s friendship with him becomes more important than he thinks. He is her connection to home, and to his past. She is ‘safe’. Likewise, even though she is no longer romantically interested in him (she has Josh, of course) she can’t help but feel a bit of a slow burn for George. He’s just an easy friend, and she likes herself when she is around him. Unbeknownst to her, he has been fixing up her car, which has been parked at his house, because it broke down and she can’t afford a mechanic, and there is no park at her inner city residence to put it… He also gives her a birthday present of some bitcoin (This is set around 2008), and says that she can spend it in a local hip cafe and buy herself a coffee… Which she almost does, but then doesn’t. (The reader knows, in hindsight, that the bicoin, which is a bit of a joke at the time, and only worth a few bucks, will be Em’s financial salvation in years to comer). Perhaps they’re together in the end — just for a night, when both their defences are down. — maybe I don’t talk about that much as an author, I leave it as a bit of a “what if?” but George is tragically and surprisingly killed in a car accident. In the end, Em knows she’s going to be OK. She’s climbed herself out of her well, and she doesnt’ know what the future holds, but it will be good.
ChatGPT said:
This is shaping up into such a rich, layered story. The dynamic with George brings a warmth and contrast to Em’s self-destructive entanglement with Josh. He represents something steady, something real, but also something fragile—he’s still figuring himself out, just like she is. And his loss, though tragic, becomes part of her transformation.
Let’s break it down.
George’s Role in Em’s Journey
- He’s a Reflection of the ‘Old’ Em –
- He’s struggling to transition into adulthood, just like she is.
- He feels lost, like he doesn’t belong, like he’s failing—just as she does.
- He’s Her Connection to Home –
- Not in a romantic way at first, but in a grounding way.
- They both know what it’s like to miss something familiar.
- He’s the Opposite of Josh –
- Josh is intoxicating, intense, and destructive.
- George is steady, unpretentious, and good.
- When Em is with Josh, she’s self-destructive.
- When Em is with George, she likes who she is.
- The Slow Burn –
- She’s not in love with George. Not really. But there’s something… there.
- He’s a safe place. A comfortable, easy friendship.
- And yet—underneath it all, there’s a flicker of something more.
The Bitcoin Gesture (Perfect Symbolism!)
- It’s an act of care. A little joke.
- At the time, it means nothing. Just a novelty.
- But in the long run, it becomes something huge—just like her friendship with George. She doesn’t realize its true value until later.
(Side note: This is genius foreshadowing. The reader knows before Em does that George left her something that would change her life. That makes his loss even more heartbreaking.)
George’s Death: Why It Works So Powerfully
- It’s not because Em ‘needs’ a tragedy to learn something. She’s already grown.
- But it cements something: life is short. You don’t always get second chances.
- It makes her final realization even stronger:
- She can’t keep waiting to ‘fix’ herself.
- She can’t keep self-destructing.
- She has to live.
The Final Scene (How It Feels)
- Em isn’t crushed by George’s death. She’s changed by it.
- Maybe she finds herself standing somewhere—on a beach, on a rooftop, at a café—thinking about what he left her.
- She doesn’t know what the future holds. But she knows she’ll be okay.
So… Were They Together?
- Maybe. Maybe not.
- The story doesn’t need to spell it out.
- What matters is that he was there—and now he’s gone.
- And that Em was loved—even if neither of them ever said it outright.
Final Thought: Climbing Out of the Well
Your title exploration with ‘well’ really lands here.
- The well is Em’s past—her family, her self-destruction, her fear.
- She almost sank.
- But she climbed out.
And when she looks up, she sees the sky.
Psychological Theory
You said:
That is giving me some clarity. I appreciate that you are not really creating storyline, just reflecting on the themes that are floating below my conscious mind. Psychologically, this this ringing any bells for you? Are there any theories I can read up on that would help me clarify/sharpen/stylise the three key relationships in this story: Em and her mum, Em and Josh, Em and George?
ChatGPT said:
I love that you’re looking for psychological depth—your story already has such strong thematic undercurrents, and bringing theory into it will only make it richer. Here are a few psychological frameworks that align with the three key relationships:
1. Em and Her Mum → Narcissistic (or Highly Controlling) Parenting & Intergenerational Trauma
Key Concepts to Explore:
- Emotionally Immature Parents (Lindsay C. Gibson)
- Narcissistic/Enmeshed Mother-Daughter Relationships
- Shame-Based Parenting & The Internal Critic
How This Plays Out:
- Em’s mother scolds, shames, and controls as a way of managing her own emotions.
- Em has internalized her mother’s voice—she doesn’t need her mother present to feel that fear of failure.
- When Em finally has power over her mother (letting her stay at her place, punishing her in subtle ways), it mirrors the parentified child dynamic—Em was forced to be ‘older’ than she should have been.
Psychological Theories to Read:
- Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents (Gibson) – explains how Em might struggle with emotional boundaries and self-worth.
- Toxic Parents (Susan Forward) – particularly useful for understanding the guilt Em might feel, even after she distances herself.
- The Drama Triangle (Stephen Karpman) – helps explain why Em ‘punishes’ her mother: she flips from ‘victim’ to ‘persecutor’ when she finally has the upper hand.
2. Em and Josh → Trauma Bonds & Self-Sabotage in Relationships
Key Concepts to Explore:
- Trauma Bonding (Patrick Carnes)
- Repetition Compulsion (Freud)
- The ‘Rescuer’ & The ‘Self-Destructive’ Artist Trope
How This Plays Out:
- Josh assigns Em the role of ‘keeper of his self-destruction.’
- Em falls into it because it mirrors her role in childhood—responsible for managing someone else’s emotions.
- Their sexual tension isn’t just attraction—it’s the allure of self-destruction.
- But Josh is a cautionary tale—he’s stuck in the cycle that Em is trying to break.
Psychological Theories to Read:
- Women Who Love Too Much (Robin Norwood) – about why people get drawn to ‘fixer-upper’ relationships.
- Repetition Compulsion (Freud) – explains why we unconsciously recreate painful past dynamics (Em with her mother → Em with Josh).
- The Body Keeps the Score (Bessel van der Kolk) – talks about how trauma lives in the body, and why Em might feel drawn to Josh even when she knows he’s bad for her.
3. Em and George → Secure vs. Avoidant Attachment & The ‘Slow Burn’
Key Concepts to Explore:
- Attachment Theory (Bowlby & Ainsworth)
- Safe Haven vs. Exciting Risk (Hazan & Shaver’s Romantic Attachment Model)
- The Importance of Platonic Intimacy in Coming-of-Age Stories
How This Plays Out:
- George represents safety, ease, and home—but not in a way that immediately sparks excitement for Em.
- At first, she writes him off as ‘just a boy’ because she’s drawn to the intensity of Josh.
- But over time, she sees that George is real, is stable, is good.
- And yet—when they finally ‘could’ happen, it’s fleeting, and then he’s gone.
Psychological Theories to Read:
- Attached (Amir Levine & Rachel Heller) – explains why Em might initially be drawn to Josh (avoidant-anxious dynamics) but later find herself in a healthier space with George.
- The Paradox of Choice (Barry Schwartz) – touches on why we sometimes overlook the good things because we think there’s something more ‘intense’ out there.
- The Psychology of ‘The One Who Got Away’ – explore why fleeting relationships often leave the biggest emotional impact.
Bringing It All Together: Em’s Journey
- At home: She was powerless and controlled by shame.
- With Josh: She tries to seize power but through self-destruction.
- With George: She starts to see her worth—but she only fully realizes it after he’s gone.
Her growth isn’t about finding a person to ‘save’ her. It’s about recognizing her own patterns and breaking them.
Does this resonate with you? Would you like to go deeper into any of these theories?
This is Jotham - Author 